Podcast on Rauschenberg, Johns, and Postwar American Art

Kapitoly

What Makes It Art?

The Art of Everyday Objects

Symbols and Meaning

A New Beginning

The Famous Flag

Beyond Paint

A New Direction

The Early Years

Flags, Maps, and Controversy

The Big Break

Beyond the Canvas

Working Together

A Personal Turn

A Bridge to Pop Art

The Famous Combines

A Mountain of Medals

Flags and Targets

Everyday Objects as Art

A Cartoon Cameo

A Diplomatic Display

Final Thoughts

Přepis

Olivia: Imagine a student staring at a painting of an American flag in a museum. It looks exactly like a flag. And she thinks, "I don't get it. Why is this considered great art?"

James: That's the million-dollar question artists started asking in the mid-20th century, and it’s a perfect way to start our topic.

Olivia: This is Studyfi Podcast. Today, we're diving into two American contemporary artists who completely changed the rules: Robert Rauschenberg and Jasper Johns.

James: Let's start with Robert Rauschenberg. He wasn't just a painter; he was an innovator famous for his "Combines."

Olivia: Combines? That sounds like something you'd see on a farm. What does it mean in art?

James: Not quite! He would take everyday objects—a stuffed goat, a car tire, a quilt—and incorporate them directly into his artwork, blurring the lines between painting and sculpture.

Olivia: So he was basically the king of upcycling before it was even a thing? I love that!

James: Exactly! And his partner and close collaborator, Jasper Johns, took a slightly different but equally revolutionary approach.

Olivia: He's the flag guy, right? The one who would confuse our student in the museum.

James: That's him. Johns painted things we see all the time, like flags, maps, and targets. By doing this, he forced the viewer to ask a critical question: are you looking at a painting *of* a flag, or are you looking at the flag itself?

Olivia: Whoa, that's a bit of a mind-bender. So the art wasn't just the object, but the idea behind it.

James: Precisely. Together, Rauschenberg and Johns challenged the very definition of art, paving the way for movements like Pop Art and influencing generations of artists to come.

Olivia: So, after finding his artistic voice, what did Jasper Johns do next? Did he just start painting?

James: Not exactly. In 1954, he did something pretty dramatic. He destroyed all of his earlier artwork. Everything.

Olivia: Whoa, really? Why would he do that?

James: He wanted a completely fresh start. And he found it in... ordinary things. He began painting subjects like flags, maps, targets, and numbers.

Olivia: That sounds... simple. Why those specific things?

James: That's the genius of it. He said they were "things the mind already knows." He didn't have to invent a composition. The design was already there.

Olivia: So he was taking the decision-making out of it?

James: Precisely. It freed him up to focus on the act of painting itself—the texture, the medium, the brushstrokes.

Olivia: And this is where his most famous work comes in, right? The flag paintings?

James: Exactly. His first one, titled *Flag*, came to him in a dream. Think of it this way—it’s a painting of the American flag, but it's also just a pattern of red, white, and blue stripes and stars.

Olivia: So it’s both representational and abstract at the same time.

James: You got it. And that ambiguity was radical. It's not a real flag you’d hang on a pole, it's art. But it still carries all the meaning of a flag. It really messed with people's heads.

Olivia: I can imagine. How was it received?

James: Well, here's the surprising part. The Museum of Modern Art was afraid to buy it! The trustees thought it might be attacked by patriotic groups during the Cold War.

Olivia: You're kidding! They were scared of a painting?

James: They were! A friend of the museum had to buy it first and donate it years later. It was just that provocative.

Olivia: So besides the subject matter, was he doing anything unusual with his materials?

James: Oh, definitely. He was famous for using encaustic. That's a technique where you mix pigment with hot wax and then apply it.

Olivia: Hot wax? Sounds tricky.

James: It is, but it allowed him to build up these incredible, textured surfaces where you can see every single brushstroke. He also started putting three-dimensional objects, like rulers or even plaster casts of faces, right onto his canvases.

Olivia: So he was literally breaking the boundaries of the flat painting. And he didn't stop there, right? He got into printmaking?

James: He did, starting around 1960. He worked with a legendary studio called ULAE and found that lithography was perfect for exploring his flags and targets in a new way. He even made a print called *Decoy* before he ever turned the image into a painting.

Olivia: So he was innovating across mediums. It's clear his work is about more than just what you see at first glance. It's about how art is made and what it can mean.

Olivia: So that really sets the stage for how artists were starting to think differently. And speaking of thinking differently, we can't talk about this era without mentioning Jasper Johns.

James: Absolutely. If the art world was a highway, Jasper Johns basically took a sharp exit off the main road of Abstract Expressionism in the 1950s.

Olivia: I like that. So he was steering American art in a whole new direction?

James: Exactly. He guided it towards something more concrete, more grounded in reality... but in a way nobody expected.

Olivia: What do you mean by that? When I think of 'concrete' I think of, well, a sidewalk.

James: Not quite, but you're not far off! He took things people saw every single day—things that were so familiar they were almost invisible—and made them the subject of his art. Think flags, maps, targets, numbers.

Olivia: Okay, that’s interesting. So instead of swirling emotions on a canvas, he was painting... a literal flag?

James: A literal flag. This was a huge deal. It created a completely distinct style and really laid the groundwork for movements like Pop Art and Minimalism.

Olivia: And I've heard his name associated with some seriously high price tags at auctions.

James: Oh, to this day. His pieces sell for record-breaking amounts. He became, and still is, a giant in the art world.

Olivia: So where did this giant come from? What's his origin story?

James: Well, he was born in Augusta, Georgia, and grew up in South Carolina. And from a very young age, he just knew. He knew he wanted to be an artist.

Olivia: It's amazing when people have that clarity so early on.

James: It is. After a short time at the University of South Carolina, he did what so many aspiring artists did: he moved to New York City in the early 1950s. And that's where everything changed.

Olivia: He found his people?

James: He found his people. He met composer John Cage, choreographer Merce Cunningham, and most importantly, the painter Robert Rauschenberg. These weren't just friends; they were collaborators and massive influences.

Olivia: And wasn't there another artist, an older one, that really sparked something for him?

James: Yes, Marcel Duchamp. Johns took a trip to Pennsylvania specifically to see Duchamp's piece, "The Large Glass." He was totally captivated.

Olivia: What was so special about Duchamp?

James: Duchamp had already rocked the art world with his "readymades." These were basically found objects—like a bicycle wheel or a bottle rack—that he presented as finished works of art.

Olivia: He just... found a bottle rack and called it art?

James: Pretty much! The idea was that the artist's choice and concept were the art, not necessarily the technical skill of creating the object. This concept—that the idea behind the art is as important as the art itself—played a huge role in Jasper Johns's own developing style.

Olivia: So this brings us back to the flags and maps. How did people react when Johns started showing these pieces?

James: It was... a mixed bag. The art world was looking for something new, something beyond pure abstraction, so his early paintings of flags and maps got both praise and a fair amount of ridicule.

Olivia: I can imagine. Some critic probably said, "My kid could paint a flag!"

James: Exactly! His work had this sense of craftsmanship, but also a touch of the absurd. The meaning wasn't just in the final image; it was in the process he used to create it.

Olivia: And what was that process like? It wasn't just paint on a canvas, right?

James: Right. He often used encaustic, which is a technique with pigmented hot wax. He'd layer it over collages of newspaper scraps. So if you look closely at his famous *Flag* painting, you can see bits of text and headlines peeking through the wax. It adds this incredible texture and depth.

Olivia: Wow. So it’s not just a flag, it's a surface with its own history. That's completely different.

James: Precisely. It was so new to museum-goers. The simple act of painting a flag or large numbers was something no one had really seen before in a fine art context. That very simplicity, that distinct style, is what eventually won people over.

Olivia: So how did he go from being this controversial new artist to a household name?

James: The story is legendary. In 1958, the gallery owner Leo Castelli was visiting Robert Rauschenberg's studio. He saw some of Johns's work there and was just blown away.

Olivia: Love at first sight?

James: Artistic love at first sight, for sure. He was so impressed by the creativity and the bold simplicity that he offered Johns—who was only 28 at the time—his own solo exhibition on the spot.

Olivia: Twenty-eight! That's incredible. How did the show go?

James: It was a massive success. During that very first exhibition, the Museum of Modern Art—the MoMA—purchased not one, not two, but three of his pieces.

Olivia: Okay, when MoMA comes knocking, you know you've made it. That's the ultimate validation.

James: It absolutely is. It proved that this simple, radical format was going to make Jasper Johns a major force. And just to give you a sense of his impact, nearly 30 years later, his works were selling for higher prices than any other living artist at the time.

Olivia: You mentioned his process was key. Did that lead him to explore other types of art besides painting?

James: It did. He made a natural transition over to printmaking. He loved that it gave him the ability to experiment and create counterparts to his paintings.

Olivia: So he could explore the same idea—like a target or a number—in different forms?

James: Exactly. And he wasn't just dabbling. The innovations he brought to screen printing, lithography, and etching completely revolutionized the field. He’s considered one of the greatest printmakers of any era, right up there with legends like Rembrandt and Picasso.

Olivia: That’s a heavy-hitting list! And he didn't stop there, right? He also worked in sculpture?

James: That's right. He started introducing sculptural ideas into his work, often using everyday objects you could find around the house. Things like beer cans, light bulbs, paint brushes.

Olivia: So he'd make a sculpture of a beer can?

James: Two beer cans, actually. One of his most famous sculptures is *Painted Bronze*, which looks exactly like two Ballantine Ale cans. He would take these simple objects and create these incredible collages and assemblages with them.

Olivia: It seems like collaboration was a big theme in his life, starting with Rauschenberg and Cage.

James: It really was. He worked with so many huge names. He collaborated with Andy Warhol, Robert Morris, Bruce Naumann... the list goes on. Collaboration was a way to keep pushing his own boundaries.

Olivia: Did he work with people outside the visual arts, too?

James: Oh yes. In 1967, he was invited by the author Frank O'Hara to create the artwork for his book, *In Memory of My Feelings*. And in the 1970s, he worked with another famous author, Samuel Beckett, on his piece *Fizzles*.

Olivia: Beckett is known for being pretty minimalist and stark. Did that influence Johns's work?

James: It definitely coincided with a shift. The work he did for Beckett showcased a more monotone, simplified art form that he was exploring at the time. It was a clear change in his style.

Olivia: So what happened in the seventies? Did his style keep evolving?

James: It took another big turn. He started creating autobiographical paintings.

Olivia: Wait a minute. Didn't he famously say early in his career that he didn't paint with emotion? That he painted "things the mind already knows"?

James: He did! And that's why this shift was so significant. For people who had followed his career, these new, more personal works seemed like a betrayal of everything he stood for. It was another moment of controversy for him.

Olivia: So, he started with familiar, impersonal objects, and then decades later, turned the focus inward on himself. It's quite a journey.

James: It’s a remarkable artistic arc. Over a 50-year career, he created his own distinct language in art. He wasn't just ahead of his time; he led other artists into a new way of thinking. And when you look at his legacy, alongside Warhol and Lichtenstein, he’s simply one of the most important American artists of the 20th century.

Olivia: An incredible career. From flags to feelings, he really challenged what art could be. Now, that idea of challenging norms is a great lead-in to our next artist...

Olivia: So, it sounds like Abstract Expressionism had a very serious, almost philosophical vibe. Where does art even go from there?

James: That's the perfect question. And the answer is a guy named Robert Rauschenberg. He's often seen as the bridge between the intense emotions of Abstract Expressionism and the cool, media-savvy world of Pop Art.

Olivia: A bridge? How so? What was he doing that was so different?

James: He famously said he wanted to work in the “gap between art and life.” Instead of just paint on a canvas, he started bringing actual life—real-world objects—into his work. It was a total game-changer.

Olivia: Real-world objects? What do you mean... like, he glued a newspaper to his painting?

James: Oh, much more than that. He created what he called “Combines.” They’re part painting, part sculpture. Think of it this way... he's creating a collage, but instead of paper, he's using a stuffed goat with a tire around its middle. Or his own bed quilt.

Olivia: Wait, he put his actual bed on a wall and called it art? I feel like I could get away with that.

Olivia: And that rebellious spirit didn't just get him noticed... it eventually got him paid. Big time.

James: That's an understatement. His work started breaking records. Get this, in 1980, the Whitney Museum bought *Three Flags* for one million dollars.

Olivia: A million dollars in 1980? That was a massive amount for a living artist!

James: Exactly. It was the highest price ever paid for one. But that was just the beginning. His painting *False Start* sold for over 17 million in 1988.

Olivia: So it definitely wasn't a false start for his bank account, then.

James: Not at all. That same painting later sold for 80 million dollars in 2006. Think about that jump.

Olivia: It’s one thing for collectors to spend a fortune, but did he get official recognition? Like, awards?

James: Oh, absolutely. The awards piled up. He won the Golden Lion at the Venice Biennale, which is like the Olympics for artists. He also received the National Medal of Arts.

Olivia: That's incredible. But I heard there was an even bigger one.

James: There was. In 2011, President Barack Obama awarded him the Presidential Medal of Freedom. It's the highest civilian honor in the U.S.

Olivia: Wow. That's amazing.

James: And here's the kicker... he was the first painter to receive that medal since 1977. It just shows how immense his impact was, far beyond the art world.

Olivia: So he had the money, the critical acclaim, and the highest honors. It seems like he achieved everything an artist could dream of.

James: He really did. And his influence is still felt today, which leads us to think about his lasting legacy...

Olivia: So that philosophy of “things the mind already knows” really shines through in his most famous pieces, doesn't it? When you look at his body of work, it's incredible.

James: Absolutely. Let's talk about the big one: *Flag* from 1954. He literally painted an American flag. It’s so simple, yet so radical. Is it a flag, or a painting of a flag? That question broke people's brains back then.

Olivia: And he didn't stop there. What about *Target with Plaster Casts*? That one feels even more intense, with the little boxes of body parts above it.

James: Exactly! He took these instantly recognizable symbols—a flag, a target—and made them strange. He used encaustic, which is pigmented wax, giving the surface this thick, textured, almost sculptural feel. It forces you to really *look* at it.

Olivia: So it’s not just about the image, but the object itself. It’s like he’s saying, “Hey, you think you know this? Look again.”

James: Precisely. He did the same thing with his sculptures, like *Painted Bronze* in 1960. He cast two Ballantine Ale cans in bronze and painted them to look exactly like the real thing. It was a huge statement.

Olivia: Turning literal garbage into fine art. That must have ruffled some feathers. It's a bit like a prank on the art world.

James: It was! But a very serious one. From flags to beer cans, or even maps and numbers, he challenged the very definition of what art could be. The key takeaway is that he made the familiar unfamiliar.

Olivia: That’s a perfect summary. His work really sets the stage for so much that came after. Now, speaking of influence, let's talk about his relationship with composer John Cage...

Olivia: So his art didn't just stay in galleries. It actually seeped into mainstream popular culture, which is pretty cool.

James: It really did. And one of my favorite examples is from an animated show pretty much everyone knows… The Simpsons.

Olivia: No way! Jasper Johns was on The Simpsons?

James: He was! He guest-starred as himself in a 1999 episode. And here's the funny part: he was depicted as a thief who steals common, everyday objects.

Olivia: That's hilarious! So he was stealing things like lightbulbs, just like the objects he painted?

James: Exactly! It was a clever, self-aware joke about his entire artistic style. A perfect little meta-moment.

Olivia: I love that. Okay, how about a more recent example?

James: Well, if you've seen the Netflix show *The Diplomat*, you've seen his work there, too. It’s a bit more serious this time.

Olivia: Oh, really? I wouldn't have expected that. Where should I look for it?

James: In the U.S. embassy in London. His iconic painting, *Flag*, is hanging right there on the wall. You can see it pretty clearly in the first and last episodes of season one.

Olivia: Wow, that’s fitting. A famous painting of the American flag, hanging in an American embassy. It’s a subtle nod, but it says a lot.

James: It really does. It shows how his work has become a part of the official American visual identity.

Olivia: So from cartoon thief to diplomatic decor, his legacy is everywhere. This has been a fascinating look at his impact.

James: It really shows that he taught us to see the familiar in a totally new light, and that's a lesson that clearly stuck.

Olivia: A perfect way to put it. Well, that's all the time we have for today. Thanks for joining us, James.

James: My pleasure.

Olivia: And a big thank you to our listeners. We'll catch you next time on the Studyfi Podcast!